La Veuve

Forum consacré à l'étude historique et culturelle de la guillotine et des sujets connexes
 
AccueilAccueil  FAQFAQ  RechercherRechercher  S'enregistrerS'enregistrer  Connexion  

Partagez | 
 

 The shadow of the "Red Widow" !!!

Voir le sujet précédent Voir le sujet suivant Aller en bas 
AuteurMessage
piotr
Monsieur de Paris
avatar

Nombre de messages : 2420
Localisation : Poland
Emploi : MD-but I'm not working in prison ;-)
Date d'inscription : 07/02/2006

MessageSujet: The shadow of the "Red Widow" !!!   Mer 14 Mar 2007 - 19:08

http://katowice.naszemiasto.pl/wydarzenia/705930.html

The information from Polish daily newspaper:
According to the article , during nazi occupation of Poland the fallbeill called "red widow" was used ( in Katowice prison) from 9 th October 1941 but the last execution was 22th Jan 1945.(Earlier prisoners were guillotined in Breslau) There were executed 552 people
( including 53 women and also a few teenagers) mostly members of resistance.The executions were in the night ( 22pm-24pm and often multiples) in the special ,white-tiled execution room, today non existing The convicted prisoners after "toilette" were dressed in paper skirts. Each execution lasted for 3-4 minutes. Dead corpses were transferred to the crematory in KL Auschwitz(about 50 km from Katowice)
The fallbeill is 235 cm high, bascule is 136 cm long,blade-51 kg; there is also receptable for the head 41x51 cm .
The hangman August Koestner commited suicide....
In the last days of the occupation the guillotine was burried by Germans in Katowice's cementary(sic!) but was unearthed by locals soon.Later ,for many years,fallbelil was stored in Police headquarters in Katowice and practically forgotten by all; in the end transferred to the Museum KL Auschwitz-Birkenau where is now stored but not exposed(only for special groups. Probably(according to the words custodian of the museum) in the future it will be part of permanent exhibition open for all visitors. Now, there is a kind of the small rivalry between museum in Auschwitz anf Museum of History Katowice for such unusual exhibit.

Katowice prison-today
http://www.us.edu.pl/katowice/informator/ilustr/z0312.jpg
Revenir en haut Aller en bas
Voir le profil de l'utilisateur
Boisdejustice
Monsieur de Paris
avatar

Nombre de messages : 1451
Age : 59
Localisation : USA
Emploi : Ingenieur
Date d'inscription : 29/01/2006

MessageSujet: Re: The shadow of the "Red Widow" !!!   Jeu 15 Mar 2007 - 4:56

Definitely another Tegel type machine.
Revenir en haut Aller en bas
Voir le profil de l'utilisateur http://boisdejustice.com
rottger
Aide non qualifié


Nombre de messages : 23
Localisation : USA
Emploi : Historian, Writer
Date d'inscription : 19/03/2007

MessageSujet: Re: The shadow of the "Red Widow" !!!   Mar 20 Mar 2007 - 5:52

piotr a écrit:
http://katowice.naszemiasto.pl/wydarzenia/705930.html

The information from Polish daily newspaper:
According to the article , during nazi occupation of Poland the fallbeill called "red widow" was used ( in Katowice prison) from 9 th October 1941 but the last execution was 22th Jan 1945.(Earlier prisoners were guillotined in Breslau) There were executed 552 people
( including 53 women and also a few teenagers) mostly members of resistance.The executions were in the night ( 22pm-24pm and often multiples) in the special ,white-tiled execution room, today non existing The convicted prisoners after "toilette" were dressed in paper skirts. Each execution lasted for 3-4 minutes. Dead corpses were transferred to the crematory in KL Auschwitz(about 50 km from Katowice)
The fallbeill is 235 cm high, bascule is 136 cm long,blade-51 kg; there is also receptable for the head 41x51 cm .
The hangman August Koestner commited suicide....
In the last days of the occupation the guillotine was burried by Germans in Katowice's cementary(sic!) but was unearthed by locals soon.Later ,for many years,fallbelil was stored in Police headquarters in Katowice and practically forgotten by all; in the end transferred to the Museum KL Auschwitz-Birkenau where is now stored but not exposed(only for special groups. Probably(according to the words custodian of the museum) in the future it will be part of permanent exhibition open for all visitors. Now, there is a kind of the small rivalry between museum in Auschwitz anf Museum of History Katowice for such unusual exhibit.

Katowice prison-today
http://www.us.edu.pl/katowice/informator/ilustr/z0312.jpg
Revenir en haut Aller en bas
Voir le profil de l'utilisateur
rottger
Aide non qualifié


Nombre de messages : 23
Localisation : USA
Emploi : Historian, Writer
Date d'inscription : 19/03/2007

MessageSujet: Katowice fallbeil/Koster   Mar 20 Mar 2007 - 6:03

piotr a écrit:
http://katowice.naszemiasto.pl/wydarzenia/705930.html

The information from Polish daily newspaper:
According to the article , during nazi occupation of Poland the fallbeill called "red widow" was used ( in Katowice prison) from 9 th October 1941 but the last execution was 22th Jan 1945.(Earlier prisoners were guillotined in Breslau) There were executed 552 people
( including 53 women and also a few teenagers) mostly members of resistance.The executions were in the night ( 22pm-24pm and often multiples) in the special ,white-tiled execution room, today non existing The convicted prisoners after "toilette" were dressed in paper skirts. Each execution lasted for 3-4 minutes. Dead corpses were transferred to the crematory in KL Auschwitz(about 50 km from Katowice)
The fallbeill is 235 cm high, bascule is 136 cm long,blade-51 kg; there is also receptable for the head 41x51 cm .
The hangman August Koestner commited suicide....
In the last days of the occupation the guillotine was burried by Germans in Katowice's cementary(sic!) but was unearthed by locals soon.Later ,for many years,fallbelil was stored in Police headquarters in Katowice and practically forgotten by all; in the end transferred to the Museum KL Auschwitz-Birkenau where is now stored but not exposed(only for special groups. Probably(according to the words custodian of the museum) in the future it will be part of permanent exhibition open for all visitors. Now, there is a kind of the small rivalry between museum in Auschwitz anf Museum of History Katowice for such unusual exhibit.

Katowice prison-today
http://www.us.edu.pl/katowice/informator/ilustr/z0312.jpg

Thanks for the interesting information Piotr. The scharfrichter identified as August "Koestner" probably is "August Koster", an assistant to Frederich Hehr who was hired in 1943 as an lead executioner. Koster (or Koestner) beheaded 579 people according to the post-war records published by Fr. Harald Polchau, chaplin of Plotzensee. The paper "skirts" probably are paper "shirts" which were long, paper garments typically worn by condemned prisons in Breslau, Brandenburg and other locations.
Do you have a photo of the fallbeil as it now looks in KZ Aushwitz? From the news photo, it clearly is a Tegel-type design similar to the one exhibited in Pancraz Prison, Prague.
Revenir en haut Aller en bas
Voir le profil de l'utilisateur
piotr
Monsieur de Paris
avatar

Nombre de messages : 2420
Localisation : Poland
Emploi : MD-but I'm not working in prison ;-)
Date d'inscription : 07/02/2006

MessageSujet: Re: The shadow of the "Red Widow" !!!   Mer 21 Mar 2007 - 17:25

Probably below is the picture fallbeill from Katowice

http://www1.ipn.gov.pl/download.php?s=1&id=2499
Revenir en haut Aller en bas
Voir le profil de l'utilisateur
piotr
Monsieur de Paris
avatar

Nombre de messages : 2420
Localisation : Poland
Emploi : MD-but I'm not working in prison ;-)
Date d'inscription : 07/02/2006

MessageSujet: Re: The shadow of the "Red Widow" !!!   Sam 26 Nov 2011 - 21:21

http://www.eolkusz.pl/2010/08/gilotyna-w-muzeum-auschwitz-birkenau/
Revenir en haut Aller en bas
Voir le profil de l'utilisateur
piotr
Monsieur de Paris
avatar

Nombre de messages : 2420
Localisation : Poland
Emploi : MD-but I'm not working in prison ;-)
Date d'inscription : 07/02/2006

MessageSujet: Re: The shadow of the "Red Widow" !!!   Ven 11 Jan 2013 - 19:59

Revenir en haut Aller en bas
Voir le profil de l'utilisateur
CARNIFEX
Admin
Admin
avatar

Nombre de messages : 1492
Age : 45
Localisation : Angers(Maine et Loire)
Emploi : Justice
Date d'inscription : 20/02/2006

MessageSujet: Re: The shadow of the "Red Widow" !!!   Sam 12 Jan 2013 - 19:58

Brrrr!! affraid

La lumière électrique rend la photo encore plus actuelle.

_________________
Potius mori quam foedari
Revenir en haut Aller en bas
Voir le profil de l'utilisateur
Invité
Invité



MessageSujet: Re: The shadow of the "Red Widow" !!!   Lun 14 Jan 2013 - 9:04

CARNIFEX a écrit:
Brrrr!! affraid

La lumière électrique rend la photo encore plus actuelle.

Exact, sous cet éclairage, c'est lugubre.   affraid
Revenir en haut Aller en bas
Adelayde
Admin
Admin
avatar

Nombre de messages : 5596
Localisation : Pays d'Arles
Date d'inscription : 02/03/2009

MessageSujet: Re: The shadow of the "Red Widow" !!!   Lun 14 Jan 2013 - 11:48

piotr a écrit:
The fallbeill is 235 cm high […] blade-51 kg
La photo montre qu'effectivement les montants de la machine sont courts. Est-ce que, malgré le poids du couperet (51 kg), cela posait problème pour la décapitation ?

_________________
"L’art est le cordon ombilical qui nous rattache au divin" - Nikolaus Harnoncourt
Revenir en haut Aller en bas
Voir le profil de l'utilisateur
Coupe-Coupe
Bourreau départemental
avatar

Nombre de messages : 229
Age : 63
Date d'inscription : 14/08/2012

MessageSujet: Re: The shadow of the "Red Widow" !!!   Lun 14 Jan 2013 - 21:21

Adelayde, je ne pense pas que cela posait un réel problème, car sauf erreur de ma part, si la lame faisait 51 kg, elle n'était pas fixée à un mouton en bois comme sur la guillotine Française, mais à un ensemble métallique (avec des bras) qui chutait avec elle, le tout pesant entre 61 et 68 kg......! affraid

A vérifier cependant ! Smile
Revenir en haut Aller en bas
Voir le profil de l'utilisateur
CARNIFEX
Admin
Admin
avatar

Nombre de messages : 1492
Age : 45
Localisation : Angers(Maine et Loire)
Emploi : Justice
Date d'inscription : 20/02/2006

MessageSujet: Re: The shadow of the "Red Widow" !!!   Mar 15 Jan 2013 - 21:28

Cela ne posait aucun problème car la faible hauteur était compensée par un poids bien plus important.

Regardez sur le site de boisdejustice. On voit bien que la lame était fixée à une masse métallique pesante, qui se prolongeait sur les côtés.

_________________
Potius mori quam foedari
Revenir en haut Aller en bas
Voir le profil de l'utilisateur
piotr
Monsieur de Paris
avatar

Nombre de messages : 2420
Localisation : Poland
Emploi : MD-but I'm not working in prison ;-)
Date d'inscription : 07/02/2006

MessageSujet: Re: The shadow of the "Red Widow" !!!   Lun 21 Avr 2014 - 13:53

Revenir en haut Aller en bas
Voir le profil de l'utilisateur
pier
Monsieur de Paris
avatar

Nombre de messages : 590
Age : 34
Localisation : Bretagne
Emploi : Commerce
Date d'inscription : 27/03/2014

MessageSujet: Re: The shadow of the "Red Widow" !!!   Lun 21 Avr 2014 - 18:51

La machine a réellement servie ?
Revenir en haut Aller en bas
Voir le profil de l'utilisateur
piotr
Monsieur de Paris
avatar

Nombre de messages : 2420
Localisation : Poland
Emploi : MD-but I'm not working in prison ;-)
Date d'inscription : 07/02/2006

MessageSujet: Re: The shadow of the "Red Widow" !!!   Jeu 26 Jan 2017 - 5:27

pier a écrit:
La machine a réellement servie ?

I don't know, I don't think so but from June 2015 is on display in Silesian museum in Katowice
Revenir en haut Aller en bas
Voir le profil de l'utilisateur
Contenu sponsorisé




MessageSujet: Re: The shadow of the "Red Widow" !!!   

Revenir en haut Aller en bas
 
The shadow of the "Red Widow" !!!
Voir le sujet précédent Voir le sujet suivant Revenir en haut 
Page 1 sur 1
 Sujets similaires
-
» The shadow of the "Red Widow" !!!
» silver manipulation / un 2eme "gorge profonde" s'exprime
» Bouton "Acomba.net"
» Où l'on reparle des "covered bonds"
» "l'heure" du midi est elle payée ?

Permission de ce forum:Vous ne pouvez pas répondre aux sujets dans ce forum
La Veuve :: PIOTR'S GOODIES-
Sauter vers: